Combining Strains and Surveying: Q&A with Wayne Schwind

Although federal prohibition complicates the ability for public research of cannabis, some researchers have reached potentially novel conclusions about the plant. Among the collective findings is an idea that, together, CBD, THC and other cannabinoids can produce an “entourage effect,” and the terms “indica” and “sativa” aren’t fail-safe in anticipating certain types of effects.

It’s in this climate that Wayne Schwind, founder of Periodic Edibles in Portland, Ore., and host of the Periodic Effects podcast, aims to gather knowledge and provide further education about cannabis.

We recently spoke with Schwind to see to get an update on cannabis science and how he and his brands are responding to the latest information.

Cannabis Dispensary: How can cannabinoid and terpene science help improve patient care and customer experiences?

Wayne Schwind: I think those two things are everything, honestly. If you know my background, I do have a business, but I also really focus on the science of cannabis. I think we’re still a little ahead of the market. We do cannabinoids, terpenes on our label, but it’s those two things—and there’s some other compounds in cannabis—but to me, those two you’ve got to look at when you’re selecting products for specific effects; everyone wants a certain effect when they consume cannabis. I think it’s critical to get away from sativa, indica, those things that have no reliability, especially if you’re talking about patients with some kind of ailment. [It’s] really important to know those different options, the different cannabinoids and terpenes, and customize your product or flower, whatever it might be, based on those.

CD: Periodic Edibles includes experiential surveys inside the wrappers of its caramels to engage customers and receive feedback on the effects from the terpenes and cannabinoids. What prompted that decision to include surveys?

WS: It’s hard to dial in [the effect]—especially when you start combining terpenes and cannabinoids and there’s the entourage effect. Then on top of that, everybody’s body is different, so myrcene might be relaxing to most people, but to some people, it may have a different effect. We label our products with a specific effect, and we keep it pretty simple, either “relaxing” or “uplifting.” Right now, there’s no hard, black and white science that says this combination in an edible is going to affect you this way. We’re trying to get an edible [to] say, “8% of people that consume our edible will feel this way.” We’re playing with different strains, different combos. Just to take feedback directly from our customer is the best way we could figure out how to get some subjective insight into: Are people actually experiencing those effects or different ones? It’s a really hard thing to figure out, and we just are constantly tweaking it to improve as we go.

CD: There are some restrictions in different markets on health claims that manufacturers, processors and retailers can make. Can you explain what that situation is like in Oregon, and is it any more or less stringent than other states and markets opening up?

WS: I don’t really know—Oregon versus other states, if they’re similar, if they’re different. It’s really hard to answer that question. Even [in] Oregon, there’s a department that approves packaging, they review every label. We’re not allowed to make claims, like, “This will help with headache.” But there’s a gray area where you can say, “Other people have been helped with their headache by using this product—these cannabinoids and terpenes.”

For ours, we don’t get very close to making claims; we just keep it as simple … and almost more on that simplified sativa-indica binary, just, “This one’s our relaxing formula,” “This one’s uplifting,” “This one’s in the middle.”

We do [podcast] episodes … [where] we talk to doctors and we get more specific on what terpene for which thing on the podcast. But as far as our actual product and labeling, we stay pretty far away from that. It’s really hard to know, where’s it okay versus when are you pushing it too far? We try to stay pretty conservative. It’s nothing that’s bold.

CD: In hosting the podcast, what is some of the most interesting information that you’ve learned from other growers about cannabis science? Also, what information that you’ve shared based on your experiences with Periodic Edibles did you really feel was important to get out there?

WS: A lot of different things, definitely. I think anything around the specifics of how cannabinoids or terpenes work in the body with the endocannabinoid system, the CB1 and 2 receptors, the own endocannabinoids our body makes—they’re similar to phytocannabinoids—I’m fascinated by all of that science. We started to really learn so much of that from Emma Chasen [of Eminent Consulting] … just all of that, like science and chemistry of how it works in the body, then the terpenes.

RELATED: Better Consumer Outcomes Through Cannabis Science: Q&A with Emma Chasen

Then, it’s also that it’s not even just the endocannabinoid system that is producing those effects. Cannabinoids and terpenes work on the body in different ways outside of the ECS [endocannabinoid system]. It just feels like we’re at the tip of the iceberg of being able to get even better at saying, “You need to sleep,” or “You need maybe some uplifting energy” or “You have pain,” to really dial in a product to hit that right on the nose for somebody—just that whole area is fascinating.

On the information we’re trying to get out there, [it] is really aggregating all of that and trying to simplify it and articulate it for a consumer, because they don’t necessarily want to learn about a CB1 receptor interacting with THC and all those little details. But the biggest one, and trying to get budtenders to preach this to customers, is the dose of THC is so critical to get right. I learned that it’s a biphasic effect, so at a lower dose, it can have a pleasant effect, but at a higher dose, it can have an opposite effect. Starting with that THC dose and then building the other terpenes and cannabinoids around that—but getting that right [is important]. For a new consumer, they start with one product, one piece of edible—5 milligrams, 15 milligrams—that’s a huge difference [between those]. [We’re] just trying to communicate that, controlling for getting the effects you want.

CD: I heard on one of the Periodic Effects episodes that Periodic Edibles is starting a hemp line. Is that still happening, and if so, could you tell us a little bit about some of the products that may be coming?

WS: It’s definitely happening as far as prototypes. We’re going to test the initial market. I’m really interested in the ecommerce side and selling directly to a consumer—shipping it right to their front door. We should have initial test stuff out maybe in two or three months, just [to] test the market. I’m not sure how we’ll scale that, how we’ll turn it on or slow it down, depending on how we need to set up, depending on how well it does. But as far as the product side, basically exactly what we’re doing now, just with hemp, maybe other minor cannabinoids and then the same terpene profile approach we’re taking right now. It’ll probably look almost like our current product line—we’ll want to change it a little bit so they know they’re not THC products. But … we’re just going to take the same vehicle we already built and just apply hemp to it.

CD: What do you hope attendees will bring back to their business from your session at Cannabis Conference 2020?

WS: My understanding is this is definitely a business-focused event, so we’re talking to a business audience—I’m assuming dispensary owners, maybe some growers, maybe some processors. I hope that the value of investing in employees, whether that’s education, paid time off, paying more than the market average, things that we try to do internally—I really want to communicate that if you just look at the short-term costs, it seems like you’re spending more money there, but the long-term benefit of taking that strategy pays off exponentially in the long haul.

I could even talk about things like employee turnover, how much that actually costs you; how efficient your employees are when you’re not looking—all these little things that I think are intangible and hard to measure—I could tie that to the business side that an owner may really care about, even though we’re talking about cannabis science and education.

I think that’s the different perspective I can bring, where Emma’s [more] on the science side; Anna [Symonds of East Fork Cultivars] really around hemp and CBD, athletes and things like that. I’m going to try to tie in a little bit of that business and just profit and loss, that it actually pays to invest in these areas.